215/01 . G3 may clean a appliance? How to access burners without removing items?

wantboost · November 20, 2018, 12:27:46 PM

When you clean a furnace dont the burners have to be removed? Or other items to access the burners. Is a g3 allowed to do this unsupervised?

walker · November 20, 2018, 01:01:51 PM

Quote from: wantboost on November 20, 2018, 12:27:46 PM
When you clean a furnace dont the burners have to be removed? Or other items to access the burners. Is a g3 allowed to do this unsupervised?

a G3 can do anything a G2 can do as long you have supervision, I've always been told supervision can be a phone call away.

Admin · November 20, 2018, 01:06:27 PM

Under direct supervision a G3 can do anything the person supervising them can do. Under general supervision, if the G3 Practical Skills Sign Off Instrument Package has been completed, a G3 can do the functions in Section 22, 1 - 4, except they cannot activate a newly installed or converted appliance.

You can download the G3 Practical Skills Sign Off Instrument Package - Here

From Ontario Regulation 215/01;

QuoteG.3 certificate
   22. (1) A person who is the holder of a G.3 certificate may, under the general supervision of a person who is the holder of a G.1, G.2 or DA certificate, carry out the following functions on a propane or natural gas appliance that falls within the scope of the supervising certificate holder's certificate, but only if the person has demonstrated the essential skills required to perform such work and has had that experience documented and signed-off by the supervising certificate holder in a form as set out and published by the director:
   1.   Install, test, activate or purge gas piping or tubing that is less than two and one-half inches in diameter or a component in a piping or tubing system to an appliance downstream of a natural gas meter or propane service valve up to an appliance control valve including the completion of the pressure test tag.
   2.   Reactivate a previously installed or converted appliance.
   3.   Clean and lubricate an appliance.
   4.    Clean, remove or replace a vent connector, venting or a draft control device. O. Reg. 215/01, s. 22 (1); O. Reg. 253/08, s. 14 (1).
   (2) A person referred to in subsection (1) shall not perform the initial activation of a new appliance or a newly converted appliance. O. Reg. 215/01, s. 22 (2).
   (3) REVOKED: O. Reg. 253/08, s. 14 (2).
   (4) A person who is the holder of a G.3 certificate may, under the direct supervision of a person who is the holder of a G.1, G.2 or DA certificate, carry out any of the functions that fall within the scope of the supervising certificate holder's certificate. O. Reg. 215/01, s. 22 (4).

tenletters · November 22, 2018, 03:50:28 PM

Quote from: walker on November 20, 2018, 01:01:51 PM
Quote from: wantboost on November 20, 2018, 12:27:46 PM
When you clean a furnace dont the burners have to be removed? Or other items to access the burners. Is a g3 allowed to do this unsupervised?

a G3 can do anything a G2 can do as long you have supervision, I've always been told supervision can be a phone call away.

No. A G3 needs direct supervision. A G1 or G2 has to be right there beside you. Not even in another room.

A G2 can do G1 work with indirect supervision. So a phone call away.

Admin · November 22, 2018, 04:59:55 PM

QuoteNo. A G3 needs direct supervision. A G1 or G2 has to be right there beside you. Not even in another room.

A G2 can do G1 work with indirect supervision. So a phone call away.

Sorry, I just realised my link to the G3 Sign Off Package in my first reply was wrong. It has been fixed and can also be downloaded - Here

These definitions can be found in the G3 Sign Off Package;

Quote"direct supervision" means the supervision by a supervising certificate holder who is on site in close proximity to a trainee and is available to assist and supervise the trainee;

"general supervision" means the supervision by a supervising certificate holder who may or may not be on site but who is readily available to assist a trainee;

If the G3 has completed the G3 Practical Skills Sign Off Instrument Package they can carry out any of 4 functions found in Section 22 (1), with general (indirect) supervision, except they cannot perform the initial activation of a new appliance or a newly converted appliance.

Quote22. (1) A person who is the holder of a G.3 certificate may, under the general supervision of a person who is the holder of a G.1, G.2 or DA certificate, carry out the following functions on a propane or natural gas appliance that falls within the scope of the supervising certificate holder's certificate, but only if the person has demonstrated the essential skills required to perform such work and has had that experience documented and signed-off by the supervising certificate holder in a form as set out and published by the director

A G2 cannot work on appliances over 400,000 BTU's unless they have the direct supervision of a G1. A G2 can only perform the functions described in paragraphs 1 to 10 of subsection 20 (2), which apply to appliances 400,000 BTU's or under. Section 20. (1) only applies to a G2 under the direct supervision of a G1, not indirect supervision. See Sections 20. (1) and 21. (2).

QuoteG.1 certificate
20. (1) A person who is the holder of a G.1 certificate may install, inspect, alter, purge, activate, repair, service or remove a natural gas or propane appliance of any BTU input and the equipment and accessories essential to its operation. O. Reg. 215/01, s. 20 (1).

QuoteG.2 certificate
21. (2) When performing a function described in subsection (1), the person may do the following:
1. Perform the functions described in paragraphs 1 to 10 of subsection 20 (2) that the holder of a G.1 certificate may perform.
2. Under the direct supervision of a person who is the holder of a G.1 certificate, perform all of the functions that fall within the scope of the supervising certificate holder's certificate.

This makes no sense, as there is no Skills Sign Off Package for a G2. Under general (indirect) supervision, why can a G3 work on appliances over 400,000 BTU's but a G2 can't? I think we found a mistake in O. Reg 215/01.

Here are Sections 20, 21 and 22 from O. Reg 215/01;

QuoteG.1 certificate
   20. (1) A person who is the holder of a G.1 certificate may install, inspect, alter, purge, activate, repair, service or remove a natural gas or propane appliance of any BTU input and the equipment and accessories essential to its operation. O. Reg. 215/01, s. 20 (1).
   (2) A person who is certified to carry out the functions described in subsection (1), may also do the following:
   1.   Install, inspect, test, alter, purge, activate, repair, service or remove any piping or tubing, or component in a piping or tubing system, to an appliance downstream of the natural gas meter or propane vapour service valve.
   2.   Install, inspect, alter, repair, service or remove any vent, vent connector, draft control device or other component in an appliance venting system.
   3.   Disconnect and reconnect water piping in order to exchange, service or install an approved appliance and carry out the replacement of water pipe necessary to complete the reconnection or installation of controls, control systems, components and accessories that are essential to the operation of the appliance, but the person shall not perform any additional plumbing unless he or she is the holder of a certificate of qualification in the trade of plumber or steamfitter, that is not suspended and that is issued under the Ontario College of Trades and Apprenticeship Act, 2009.
   4.   Maintain, service or replace a mechanical or electrical component or accessory that forms part of an appliance or that is essential to the operation of the appliance.
   5.   Perform such tasks as are necessary to replace controls and components that form part of an appliance.
   6.   Install, service, remove or replace components and accessories that form part of the gas-side of a refrigerating or air-conditioning unit, but the person shall not perform any work beyond the gas-side unless he or she is the holder of a certificate of qualification in the trade of refrigeration and air conditioning systems mechanic or residential air conditioning systems mechanic, that is not suspended and that is issued under the Ontario College of Trades and Apprenticeship Act, 2009.
   7.   Install, repair, service and maintain electrical wiring from an existing branch circuit containing overcurrent protection to appliances in order to exchange, service, repair or install an approved appliance and carry out the replacement of electrical wiring necessary to complete the reconnection or installation of controls, control systems, components and accessories that are essential to the operation of the appliance, but the person shall not run wiring back to the electrical supply panel or perform any additional wiring unless he or she is the holder of a certificate of qualification in the trade of electrician — construction and maintenance or electrician — domestic and rural, that is not suspended and that is issued under the Ontario College of Trades and Apprenticeship Act, 2009.
   8.   Install, repair, service, remove or replace the plenum connection or components forming part of the plenum connection in order to complete the installation of a natural gas or propane appliance, but the person shall not perform any sheet metal work beyond the plenum connection unless he or she is the holder of a certificate of qualification in the trade of residential (low rise) sheet metal installer or sheet metal worker, that is not suspended and that is issued under the Ontario College of Trades and Apprenticeship Act, 2009.
   9.   Service a flue where an oil appliance is vented through the same flue as a gas appliance.
   10.   Remove a fuel oil appliance, and the equipment and accessories, but not the aboveground storage tanks associated with the fuel oil appliance during a conversion of the fuel oil appliance from fuel oil to natural gas or propane gas. O. Reg. 215/01, s. 20 (2); O. Reg. 441/12, s.

G.2 certificate
   21. (1) A person who is the holder of a G.2 certificate may install, inspect, alter, purge, activate, repair, service or remove a natural gas or propane appliance that has an input of 400,000 Btuh or less and the equipment and accessories essential to its operation. O. Reg. 215/01, s. 21 (1).
   (2) When performing a function described in subsection (1), the person may do the following:
   1.   Perform the functions described in paragraphs 1 to 10 of subsection 20 (2) that the holder of a G.1 certificate may perform.
   2.   Under the direct supervision of a person who is the holder of a G.1 certificate, perform all of the functions that fall within the scope of the supervising certificate holder's certificate. O. Reg. 215/01, s. 21 (2).

G.3 certificate
   22. (1) A person who is the holder of a G.3 certificate may, under the general supervision of a person who is the holder of a G.1, G.2 or DA certificate, carry out the following functions on a propane or natural gas appliance that falls within the scope of the supervising certificate holder's certificate, but only if the person has demonstrated the essential skills required to perform such work and has had that experience documented and signed-off by the supervising certificate holder in a form as set out and published by the director:
   1.   Install, test, activate or purge gas piping or tubing that is less than two and one-half inches in diameter or a component in a piping or tubing system to an appliance downstream of a natural gas meter or propane service valve up to an appliance control valve including the completion of the pressure test tag.
   2.   Reactivate a previously installed or converted appliance.
   3.   Clean and lubricate an appliance.
   4.    Clean, remove or replace a vent connector, venting or a draft control device. O. Reg. 215/01, s. 22 (1); O. Reg. 253/08, s. 14 (1).
   (2) A person referred to in subsection (1) shall not perform the initial activation of a new appliance or a newly converted appliance. O. Reg. 215/01, s. 22 (2).
   (3) REVOKED: O. Reg. 253/08, s. 14 (2).
   (4) A person who is the holder of a G.3 certificate may, under the direct supervision of a person who is the holder of a G.1, G.2 or DA certificate, carry out any of the functions that fall within the scope of the supervising certificate holder's certificate. O. Reg. 215/01, s. 22 (4).

Porcupinepuffer · November 22, 2018, 09:33:22 PM

It's tricky and I had to read it several times. A G2 can still do more then a G3. They are allowed to do everything A G1 can from section (2) 1-10 and DO NOT require a practical skills sign off or even general supervision.
The G3 has a limited number of 1-4 skills listed under the g3 scope that they are allowed to do with general supervision with the practical skills sign off. But it's only those 4 specific things on the sign off sheet that can be found under G1 section (2).

A G2 can do a lot more since they're open to the entire section (2) 1-10 with no practical skills sign off or general supervision.

And both g2/g3 licenses can do everything a G1 can with direct supervision.

Admin · November 23, 2018, 05:08:04 AM

I agree with that. I'm just saying I do not see anything that would prevent a G3 from working on appliances over 400,000 BTU's if they have the general supervision of a G1 and have completed the sign off package.

It says a G2 can do the same but only with the direct supervision of a G1.

Porcupinepuffer · November 23, 2018, 05:28:33 PM

It's still quite limited to what a G3 can do with equipment over 400,000 btu's then what a G2 can do with equipment over 400,000 btu's.

The sign off sheet that a G1 would fill out to say that particular G3 is competent is a pretty big deal when you don't need it for the G2 and with the G2 you can perform all functions of 1-10. Whereas the G3 has a modified list of only 4 things they can be signed off to do with general supervision.

Are you trying to say a G3 shouldn't have any business whatsoever near anything over 400kbtu?

I can understand a kid walking out the door after having done the g3 with no experience, but then I guess that's what makes a sign off sheet from a G1 or G2 for practical skills important.
I know some G3's that should be G1's with their experience and knowledge.

Admin · November 23, 2018, 05:55:08 PM

If a G3 can work on equipment over 400,000 BTU's with general supervision, then a G2 should be able too as well.

Let's use doing maintenances as an example. A G3 with the sign off package under a G1 can clean equipment over 400,000 BTU's with only general supervision. A G2 could only do this with direct supervision. This seems unfair, or a loophole for employers to pay less for a G3 to do this job.

Porcupinepuffer · November 24, 2018, 08:23:27 AM

Ok. I think I got what you're saying. I was under the impression scope 1-4 for the G3 sign off requirements was just a short form of the scope listed under 1-10 for the G1... but it's only item 1 and 4 that is similar. 2 and 3 does give a G3 room to do things on equipment over 400kbtu that a G2 doesn't seem to be allowed to do with general supervision.
Makes no sense when you have to get a G3 to eventually become a G2.

tenletters · November 24, 2018, 09:55:27 AM

Quote from: Admin on November 22, 2018, 04:59:55 PM
G.2 certificate
21. (2) When performing a function described in subsection (1), the person may do the following:
1. Perform the functions described in paragraphs 1 to 10 of subsection 20 (2) that the holder of a G.1 certificate may perform.
2. Under the direct supervision of a person who is the holder of a G.1 certificate, perform all of the functions that fall within the scope of the supervising certificate holder's certificate.

That must be newer. It wasn't like that 4 years ago. It was general supervision.

viking · November 24, 2018, 06:07:25 PM

If i'm not mistaken the reg was written in 2001.
I've heard it called a glitch by TSSA inspectors but I dont think so. I think it's intentional to encourage G2's to work directly with G1's to get the required hours.
Does seem odd though that a G3 can work on large equipment without direct supervision.

Porcupinepuffer · November 25, 2018, 05:19:21 PM

Quote from: tenletters on November 24, 2018, 09:55:27 AM
Quote from: Admin on November 22, 2018, 04:59:55 PM
G.2 certificate
21. (2) When performing a function described in subsection (1), the person may do the following:
1. Perform the functions described in paragraphs 1 to 10 of subsection 20 (2) that the holder of a G.1 certificate may perform.
2. Under the direct supervision of a person who is the holder of a G.1 certificate, perform all of the functions that fall within the scope of the supervising certificate holder's certificate.

That must be newer. It wasn't like that 4 years ago. It was general supervision.

Nope. My copy in my codebook of the 215/01 says April 8, 2013 and is exactly the same as what's posted here.

tenletters · November 25, 2018, 06:28:55 PM

My 2010 doesn't say direct. A tssa agent I was shooting the breeze with talked about this at most 4 years ago and he mentioned just make sure one of our G1 guys was available to answer a call if they walked up.

Quote from: Porcupinepuffer on November 25, 2018, 05:19:21 PM
Quote from: tenletters on November 24, 2018, 09:55:27 AM
Quote from: Admin on November 22, 2018, 04:59:55 PM
G.2 certificate
21. (2) When performing a function described in subsection (1), the person may do the following:
1. Perform the functions described in paragraphs 1 to 10 of subsection 20 (2) that the holder of a G.1 certificate may perform.
2. Under the direct supervision of a person who is the holder of a G.1 certificate, perform all of the functions that fall within the scope of the supervising certificate holder's certificate.

That must be newer. It wasn't like that 4 years ago. It was general supervision.

Nope. My copy in my codebook of the 215/01 says April 8, 2013 and is exactly the same as what's posted here.

viking · November 25, 2018, 09:46:07 PM

Do a search. Looks like the reg has said direct supervision since at least 2003.

Admin · November 25, 2018, 10:50:14 PM

It looks like the Supervisor is only responsible for the trainee under direct supervision. I guess a G3 working on equipment over 400,000 BTU's with only general supervision isn't a concern! $:-\$

QuoteSupervising certificate holder
53. A supervising certificate holder providing direct supervision to a person is responsible for the work of the supervised person. O. Reg. 215/01, s. 53.

Section 22(3) was revoked;

QuoteA person who is the holder of a G.1, G.2, DA, DA-RV, GP or IMT certificate is responsible for any work carried out by a person who is the holder of a G.3 certificate who is under his or her supervision. O. Reg. 215/01, s. 22 (3).